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Discussion: Time Paradox

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siguy97	20. RE: Time Paradox May 13 2009, 11:30 AM EDT I think your right the realities would absolve. Post reply Do you find this valuable?
Alterwalter	21. RE: Time Paradox May 13 2009, 11:33 AM EDT "I was right something drastic was going to happen but I didn't know that it was to that extreme. Peter from this alternate universe is dead and the Peter from the other universe is in our universe." Is that why Peter (in this universe) call his father "Walter" rather than "Dad"? Post reply Do you find this valuable?
gorslash	22. RE: Time Paradox May 19 2009, 10:06 AM EDT "Is that why Peter (in this universe) call his father "Walter" rather than "Dad"?" well my theory is that perhaps the peter in this universe is simply a younger walter. As presented earlier in this thread there is a possibility of seperate dimensions existing in seperate timelines, independant from one another. This could mean that Walter could have travelled into another dimension that is currently holding a much younger version of himself (effectively travelling into the 'past') I know that others have said that the idea of time has not occured in Walters explaination of the dimensions, but maybe this was intentional. What if they plan to explore the idea of 'time travel' in a later episode, and thereby absolve this argument that all the time lines are set to a certain all encompassing clock. For example, The people who went to work on Sept 11th in this dimension were in for a suprise later in the day. Where as the same people in the next dimension over went to work at the same time, and had a normal day. What if that dimension where the people are simply having a normal day means that they exist days or even years before this dimension? I know that it is hard to speculate given so little information on the show itself. But isn't that what JJ is best at? ;) Post reply Do you find this valuable?
rottermania	23. RE: Time Paradox May 19 2009, 10:44 AM EDT "What if that dimension where the people are simply having a normal day means that they exist days or even years before this dimension? " I like the time travel idea. It would explain one thing that has been bothering me - when the observer shows walter the coin, if i recall, it was seriously weathered by age in a way that made me think it was way older than the coin walter had hidden away near the dimension cork at the beach house. a little time travel would explain that, plus abrams just loves time travel. Post reply Do you find this valuable?
gil_cdn	24. RE: Time Paradox May 19 2009, 12:56 PM EDT All these different realities and time travelling really messes up everything! Choices can be altered, history can be changed, events or even person can be erased, loops of endless vicious cycles ....... how can one cope with a non-linear world? Coincidentally, they mentioned Alternate Reality in the new Star Trek movie, with the shinning horizontal blue light; Nero and Spock travel back in time ...... it really messes things up when Senior Spock meet Junior Spock .... Deja Vu - All Over Again?!?! Post reply Do you find this valuable?
alexanderpromothus	25. RE: Time Paradox May 19 2009, 1:57 PM EDT "All these different realities and time travelling really messes up everything! Choices can be altered, history can be changed, events or even person can be erased, loops of endless vicious cycles ....... how can one cope with a non-linear world? Coincidentally, they mentioned Alternate Reality in the new Star Trek movie, with the shinning horizontal blue light; Nero and Spock travel back in time ...... it really messes things up when Senior Spock meet Junior Spock .... Deja Vu - All Over Again?!?!" According to Walter there is no such thing as a linear equation, in reference to time travel and roads not taken. Post reply Do you find this valuable?
WexlerTestidian	26. RE: Time Paradox May 19 2009, 3:26 PM EDT \| Post edited: May 19 2009, 3:29 PM EDT There is no paradox. It doesn't matter if another reality intercedes with "our" reality. Time is moving forward in both realities and no one is interfering with the sequence of established historical events. That they're happening across realities is irrelevant. What happens in the here and now, in the present is always "supposed" to happen, regardless of what reality it's happening in or whether that reality is involved with another. It's like you saying "today, I'll go to work" then deciding to stay home at the last minute and you find out your office burned down. Fortunate for you, but you didn't "change" history. You had no way of knowing what would happen. You just made a decision. If you have a timeline and something happens in the context of that timeline, your timeline isn't "changed". History might change, of course, you're alive now instead of dead but this is not a "should" or "should not" have happened sequence of events. There is no time travel involved. It's simply the natural progression of history. Same as intercession from another reality. Or aliens landing or whatever. There is no "change" from an established historical record. It's the creation of that record, from the present time into the future. Post reply 2 out of 2 found this valuable. Do you find this valuable? Do you?
alexanderpromothus	27. RE: Time Paradox May 21 2009, 1:54 PM EDT They are interfering with the space time continuum because they are bringing people from the other dimension , which interferes with the time line. Post reply Do you find this valuable?
bluesunflower	28. RE: Time Paradox Jul 2 2009, 2:27 PM EDT \| Post edited: Jul 2 2009, 3:11 PM EDT "Time is a factor because time is existent in both realities and they are not coherent. " Yes, they are coherent. There is no evidence that both realities do not run concurrently in time. The only time factor the show has introduced is the Observer, who comes from a reality that is "slightly" ahead of our own. Post reply Do you find this valuable?
bluesunflower	29. RE: Time Paradox Jul 2 2009, 2:30 PM EDT \| Post edited: Jul 2 2009, 2:33 PM EDT "There is no paradox. It doesn't matter if another reality intercedes with "our" reality. Time is moving forward in both realities and no one is interfering with the sequence of established historical events." That's incorrect. Both Walter and the Observer have created paradoxes by interfering with the sequence of established historical events. Walter stole Alternative Peter; and so far the Observer has stepped in to save Walter and Peter, have Walter hide the cylinder, and get Walter to plug David Jone's hole. All of those changed our timeline unnaturally (and the alternative timeline that's now without Peter), hence the paradoxes. Post reply Do you find this valuable?
ark633	30. RE: Time Paradox Aug 5 2009, 9:20 AM EDT \| Post edited: Aug 5 2009, 9:20 AM EDT i couldnt find other way to talk on here other than reply.........but, if future travel was possible. Other than past, and also take parallel universes out of concept, what about the future. What I think is a paradox is, how can you meet yourself in the future, or how would the future be like without you, because if you go into the future, you wouldnt be there for the amount of time you traveled through. It would be like a version of the butterfly effect Post reply Do you find this valuable?
jtarbox	31. RE: Time Paradox Aug 6 2009, 2:39 PM EDT \| Post edited: Aug 6 2009, 2:39 PM EDT To me, a time paradox implies changing a time line in a fashion such that should counters the ability for it to be changed. Example, person A going back in time and killing his/her parent, thus causing them to not exist and in turn preventing them from killing their parent. I have yet to see such an occurrence in this reality within the Fringe series. As for the gleaning of information from the alternate reality, who's to say that those actions were not meant to happen? I keep hearing about the current reality being altered by information from the alternate reality, but if that was nature's natural course, then there would not be a time paradox as mentioned. Post reply Do you find this valuable?
IndigoRage	32. RE: Time Paradox Aug 7 2009, 12:28 PM EDT I've yet to see any indications of possible temporal paradox. The most famous temporal paradox, the Grandfather Paradox, presents itself thusly: A time-traveler travels back to a time before his paternal grandfather met his paternal grandmother and kills him, thus preventing the birth of his parents, thus preventing his own birth, thus preventing his trip back in time to kill his paternal grandfather. However, since the time-traveler has made the trip, the paradox exists. The other major temporal paradox is the Predestination Paradox. In this paradox, the time traveler must make a trip into the past to ensure some historical event takes place, though it is this event, set in motion by the time traveler that prompts the time traveler to make the trip in the first place. For example, a time traveler decides to venture into the past to prevent the death of a historical figure, but in the attempt to rescue this individual, the time-traveler actually causes the death of said figure, thus creating the predestination paradox. This paradox is also known as a causal-loop, causaility loop, or closed-loop paradox. The last most common temporal paradox is the Ontological paradox, also known as the Bootstrap Paradox. It is a little more difficult to explain this particular paradox, so I will simply give a couple examples. In the first scenerio, a time-traveler ventures into the future, steals a high-tech device and returns with it to his own time to pass the device off as his own invention. By the time the device can be produced, a "copy" of this device is stolen - this stolen copy is, in fact, the device the time traveler originally stole. Post reply Do you find this valuable?
IndigoRage	33. RE: Time Paradox Aug 7 2009, 12:29 PM EDT \| Post edited: Aug 7 2009, 12:31 PM EDT The second scenerio, a time-traveler goes into the past, to meet his great-great grandfather, whom no one in his family ever knew. While looking for this man, the traveler meets a woman and they become physically involved, The woman, is acutally the time traveler's great-great grandmother, thus making the time traveler his own great-great grandfather. This scenerio is often mistaken for the above mentioned Grandfather Paradox, but it is a very different scenerio. Post reply Do you find this valuable?
FutureMuggles	34. RE: Time Paradox Aug 15 2009, 8:31 AM EDT No, I've not seen any time travel in Fringe, either in the same reality or from one reality to a different time in another reality. I have also seen no classical time paradoxons (e.g. grandfather paradox). What I have seen is the interaction of two alternate realities, which produce questions, but no paradox. In multiple realities, "there's more than one of everything" and it's weird to consider who came from where, but that is not a paradox and can be easily rationalized. What we do get is a glimpse of, "what may have happened if.." because the pasts of the two realities is different. Post reply Do you find this valuable?
Starblaize	35. RE: Time Paradox Aug 29 2009, 7:07 PM EDT Going back in time and changing past events is not in itself a paradox, but you can create one if the events that were triggered by the change then prevent the change from occurring and only if predestination isn't in effect when you do. You go back in time to save a historical figure which triggers a chain of events that create a timeline in which your grandfather is never born. I don't think I have seen any time paradox theories involving parallel universes. In fact, parallel universes are often used to eliminate the problem of time paradoxes. According to Everett in the 1950's, parallel worlds are created from physical possibility. The world in which I go back in time to kill grandpa splits into several alternate time lines, eliminating the paradox and preventing me from flashing out of existence. I have killed the man that is my grandfather in a parallel world that swerves off from my time line and in my time line, my grandfather remains unaffected by time travelling homicidal tendancies. Since any action can create infinite chain reactions, the potential for infinite parallel worlds is strong and it would be impossible to me to kill my grandfather in any of the time lines in which I continue to exist. Drat, I am going to have to find another way to do away with the old coot! ;) Post reply Do you find this valuable?
FutureMuggles	36. RE: Time Paradox Aug 30 2009, 3:08 PM EDT LOL! Tell me, if you use the parallel universe theory to kill your grandpa, you will have traveled to a different universe. Universes are closed systems where mass cannot be created or destroyed, so where did your mass come from? Post reply Do you find this valuable?
Starblaize	37. RE: Time Paradox Aug 30 2009, 8:47 PM EDT But wouldn't the presence of worm holes basically prevent any system from being a closed system? Matter cannot be created or destroyed, but it can be displaced. Post reply Do you find this valuable?
FutureMuggles	38. RE: Time Paradox Aug 31 2009, 7:56 AM EDT Good challenge :-) OK so if two universes were connected (a biverse if you like) you could conserve mass but displace it from one to the other. But how may universes can we connect? If there are infinite alternatives and they are all connected, each one would feel the mass of all of them and there would be too much mass to allow the expansion rate that we observe. I would somehow like this if we could settle on about 6 universes being connected - because that would explain where all the dark matter is. Post reply Do you find this valuable?
Starblaize	39. RE: Time Paradox Aug 31 2009, 9:05 PM EDT I found this over at The Everett FAQ http://www.hedweb.com/manworld.htm#conservation "First, the law conservation of energy is based on observations within each world. All observations within each world are consistent with conservation of energy, therefore energy is conserved. Second, and more precisely, conservation of energy, in QM, is formulated in terms of weighted averages or expectation values. Conservation of energy is expressed by saying that the time derivative of the expected energy of a closed system vanishes. This statement can be scaled up to include the whole universe. Each world has an approximate energy, but the energy of the total wavefunction, or any subset of, involves summing over each world, weighted with its probability measure. This weighted sum is a constant. So energy is conserved within each world and also across the totality of worlds. One way of viewing this result - that observed conserved quantities are conserved across the totality of worlds - is to note that new worlds are not created by the action of the wave equation, rather existing worlds are split into successively "thinner" and "thinner" slices, if we view the probability densities as "thickness"." So matter that is shifted from one world to another may not have an adverse effect because the sum total mass of all worlds still remains the same and constant. Post reply Do you find this valuable?

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