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jamesieboy666 |
20. RE: Walter Bishop/ William Bell? figured out resonable answer
Dec 10 2008, 2:20 AM EST
"ever considered that if he can go back in time then wouldnt cloning himself be also pretty resonable guess with this fringe technology??"i meant by that william bell is walter bishops cloneand is like some sort of evil 2 faced version who may or may not look the same 0 out of 1 found this valuable. Do you? |
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sefreimont |
21. RE: Walter Bishop/ William Bell? figured out resonable answer
Dec 10 2008, 9:42 AM EST
"ever considered that if he can go back in time then wouldnt cloning himself be also pretty resonable guess with this fringe technology??" If anyone is a "clone", Peter is - a clone of himself. We know that Walter can clone, we know that Walter can cause rapid aging. It is unclear whether Walter knows precisely how to stop rapid aging, but there is indirect and circumstantial evidence that he can. We know, for example that Peter "died" or was at least "extremely" damaged in the icy road car accident where The Observer pulled him out of the lake when Walter could not. We know that there are oddities about Peter's medical history that Walter was uncomfortable enough about that he tried to seek Olivia's silence about them until he discovered that Olivia knew nothing about them. One possibility is that Peter was the product of a genetic experiment that Walter raised as his own son, an experiment that NIna Sharp assisted in, thus explaining her presence during Peter's childhood. Another possibility is that Peter was an otherwise normal child who died in the car accident, and that Walter cloned him, accelerated his growth to equal the dead Peter, then transferred memories from dead Peter to live Peter clone, all with Nina Sharp's assistance. It is also possible that Nina Sharp is Peter's mother, at least in a lab experiment/supplier of genetic material fashion. We know that she has problems with technology - afraid of flying yet has a mechanical arm - that jives with Walter's reference to Peter's "mother" as constantly challenging the "extreme possibilities" of his fringe science experiments... 4 out of 4 found this valuable. Do you? |
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sefreimont |
22. RE: Walter Bishop/ William Bell? figured out resonable answer
Dec 10 2008, 9:47 AM EST
"ever considered that if he can go back in time then wouldnt cloning himself be also pretty resonable guess with this fringe technology??"We that Walter did NOT go back in time because he stated expressly that he completed the thinking behind the machine, completed the prototype, then Peter suddenly recovered and Walter did not use it. This provides yet further circumstantial evidence for the separate existence of William Bell, as follows... Bell knows that Walter is capable of great things, resolving all manner of problems, but lacks the specific focus on issues that Bell is interested in. Accordingly, in this line of reasoning, Bell infects Peter with a rare disease to give Walter focus, which leads to the teleportation/time travel device, a device Walter never uses, then hides from Bell for reasons not yet clear. 3 out of 3 found this valuable. Do you? |
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sefreimont |
23. RE: Walter Bishop/ William Bell?
Dec 10 2008, 10:02 AM EST
"Its my personal belief that Walter is faking his "craziness". True geniuses are smart enough to look stupid. I think the mental institution was just a bigger lab for him. Coincidence that the only episode they go there was to speak with the man who gave them info on the mathematical version of the pattern? I think the "cells" are little autonomous projects that Walter set up and Massive Dynamic does all his leg work trying to gather all the pieces for him. William Bell is not some evil genius, hes just some business minded political type running the corporate side of Walters work. Hes like his #2. Oh, and Peter is obviously a test tube baby genetically engineered by Walter, or just a clone of Walter. "Faking is possible, but highly unlikely. All the evidence provided suggests that Walter was kept in the institution against his will, and was drugged/tormented in order to prevent him from thinking his way out of the problem. See, for example, the parallel case of the mathematician (Formula episode) held in the same institution as Walter. We learn from this episode that Walter had at least some higher functioning than his erstwhile colleague, but in general was denied the full range of his faculties by the medication and environment he was subjected to. Genius, in most cases, tends to be rather fragile - order and control over one's environment (as in OCD cases) is a typical prerequisite to unique insight and path-breaking accomplishment, a prerequisite in this case denied by Walter's very presence in the institution. No evidence has been offered to date that suggests contact between Walter and the outside world during his 17 years in the institution, thus negating the possibility that cells or Massive Dynamics were working for/with Walter over time. Instead, all evidence to date indicates the exact opposite - a concerted attempt to PREVENT Walter from knowing about the developments/progress made upon his ideas/inventions during his institutionalization. On the other hand EVIL GENIUS tends to be much more hearty and self-sustaining. While there is much evidence that Walter's ideas are being used for evil, there is little if anything to indicate that this evil is WALTER'S doing. This is a standard dilemma in sci-fi lit, dating back to the 1950s and the invention of the atomic bomb. Science leads to invention (as in the Manhattan Project of the 1940s), but scientists seldom control the use of their inventions (see, for example. Robert Oppenheimer and his response to the use of the bomb in the 1950s.) 6 out of 6 found this valuable. Do you? |
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arjay999 |
24. RE: Walter Bishop/ William Bell? figured out resonable answer
Dec 10 2008, 4:46 PM EST
"We [know] that Walter did NOT go back in time because he stated expressly that he completed the thinking behind the machine, completed the prototype, then Peter suddenly recovered and Walter did not use it. This provides yet further circumstantial evidence for the separate existence of William Bell, as follows... Bell knows that Walter is capable of great things, resolving all manner of problems, but lacks the specific focus on issues that Bell is interested in. Accordingly, in this line of reasoning, Bell infects Peter with a rare disease to give Walter focus, which leads to the teleportation/time travel device, a device Walter never uses, then hides from Bell for reasons not yet clear."I like you're reasoning here. I think the reasons for hiding the completed prototype would be to keep Bell (or others like him) from using it, as a danger to the time line could be the result. (If so: This would also parallel somewhat the device the characters of "Alias" (another JJ Abrams show) were after for so many seasons, tracking down pieces to finally form the completed, working 'Ramboli' device.) Do you find this valuable? |
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arjay999 |
25. RE: Walter Bishop/ William Bell?
Dec 10 2008, 4:49 PM EST
"Faking is possible, but highly unlikely. All the evidence provided suggests that Walter was kept in the institution against his will, and was drugged/tormented in order to prevent him from thinking his way out of the problem. See, for example, the parallel case of the mathematician (Formula episode) held in the same institution as Walter. We learn from this episode that Walter had at least some higher functioning than his erstwhile colleague, but in general was denied the full range of his faculties by the medication and environment he was subjected to. Genius, in most cases, tends to be rather fragile - order and control over one's environment (as in OCD cases) is a typical prerequisite to unique insight and path-breaking accomplishment, a prerequisite in this case denied by Walter's very presence in the institution. No evidence has been offered to date that suggests contact between Walter and the outside world during his 17 years in the institution, thus negating the possibility that cells or Massive Dynamics were working for/with Walter over time. Instead, all evidence to date indicates the exact opposite - a concerted attempt to PREVENT Walter from knowing about the developments/progress made upon his ideas/inventions during his institutionalization. On the other hand EVIL GENIUS tends to be much more hearty and self-sustaining. While there is much evidence that Walter's ideas are being used for evil, there is little if anything to indicate that this evil is WALTER'S doing. This is a standard dilemma in sci-fi lit, dating back to the 1950s and the invention of the atomic bomb. Science leads to invention (as in the Manhattan Project of the 1940s), but scientists seldom control the use of their inventions (see, for example. Robert Oppenheimer and his response to the use of the bomb in the 1950s.)"Ditto! Do you find this valuable? |
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woodboxgang |
26. RE: Walter Bishop/ William Bell? figured out resonable answer
Dec 11 2008, 2:21 AM EST
"What type of bird flu did Walter say Peter had? It was rare and maybe can be traced to an documented outbreak timeline that says for sure Peter or Walter had it. Notice how often Walter confuses himself with Peter? Like with the coffee yogurt and childhood toys. It could be just confused memories serving to keep us guessing; or it could be Walter who had the bird flu and was cloned. Granted the bird flu was said to have occurred during childhood. Sometimes life changing events can occur during intense sickness, like schizophrenia. Do you find this valuable? |
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arjay999 |
27. RE: Walter Bishop/ William Bell? figured out resonable answer
Dec 11 2008, 2:33 AM EST
"What type of bird flu did Walter say Peter had? It was rare and maybe can be traced to an documented outbreak timeline that says for sure Peter or Walter had it.I think the memory problem is due to shared, isolation-tank memories, not cloning. Sort of like what Olivia is currently going through with the John Scott memory confusion. I believe Peter is a clone of Walter's dead son, Peter, who actually died in the car accident in the freezing water when the Observer allegedly saved them. I think Walter left out some details when he told Peter the tale. Then, to help preserve some of bit of his dead son, Walter connected to the young childs mind and shared his memories. Of course, some of his memories would have crossed over too, hence the constant confusion. He would have also used the 6-hour window after death to initially give the clone baby dead Peter's memories immediately after the crash. What do you think of that theory? 2 out of 3 found this valuable. Do you? |
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55hehe |
28. RE: Walter Bishop/ William Bell?
Dec 11 2008, 2:37 AM EST
"Its my personal belief that Walter is faking his "craziness". True geniuses are smart enough to look stupid. I think the mental institution was just a bigger lab for him. Coincidence that the only episode they go there was to speak with the man who gave them info on the mathematical version of the pattern? I think the "cells" are little autonomous projects that Walter set up and Massive Dynamic does all his leg work trying to gather all the pieces for him. William Bell is not some evil genius, hes just some business minded political type running the corporate side of Walters work. Hes like his #2. Oh, and Peter is obviously a test tube baby genetically engineered by Walter, or just a clone of Walter. "actually.... if youre psychological reports on people with high intellect you will find that many of them actually act out of the norm.... this is because they think outside of the box, otherwise no new ideas, inventions, research, etc... would come about. for some reason there is a thin line between insanity and intelligence... Do you find this valuable? |
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55hehe |
29. RE: Walter Bishop/ William Bell?
Dec 11 2008, 2:39 AM EST
i mean "if you read psychological reports"
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sefreimont |
30. RE: Walter Bishop/ William Bell? figured out resonable answer
Dec 11 2008, 12:19 PM EST
"I think the memory problem is due to shared, isolation-tank memories, not cloning. Sort of like what Olivia is currently going through with the John Scott memory confusion.Yes, and we can take it a step further... Peter's proclivity for science and his ability to finish Walter's thoughts and complete his half-processed thoughts is an extension of the linkages between Walter and Peter via the various mind, thought, etc., experiments conducted during Peter's youth. Thus, "Peter as clone of Walter" is incorrect - shared thoughts are not the same as completely shared DNA, and besides, they don't look alike - clones do. Also, Peter's inability to finish anything he starts throughout his life can also be explained by this reasoning - Walter's thought/skill-set imprint has created a double-identity of sorts within Peter that does not necessarily jive with Peter's own natural inclinations and preferences... Do you find this valuable? |
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drkdreams |
31. RE: Walter Bishop/ William Bell?
Dec 11 2008, 12:21 PM EST
Okay think about it, Walter said to Peter "Maybe you have found your true calling at last...working with me" (may i add with a beaming smile on his face).As we have not seen William Bell, we cannot say for sure that he or Peter are the same or separate, however as they worked together and "shared" a lab together, when you are viewing the video in the archive of one of Walters lab experiments, William Bell is no where to be seen, however Walter is willing to harm this man (and his son). -drk Do you find this valuable? |
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sefreimont |
32. RE: Walter Bishop/ William Bell? figured out resonable answer
Dec 11 2008, 1:44 PM EST
"What type of bird flu did Walter say Peter had? It was rare and maybe can be traced to an documented outbreak timeline that says for sure Peter or Walter had it."Hepian or Hepean was what Walter said, with a chronological reference suggesting a derivative of the Spanish Flue epidemic of 1918-19, but there is nothing in the scientific literature suggesting any real basis in fact, either with regard to name or doctor (Alfred Gross) researching it... A cursory google search turns up the leading epidemiological history of the last 25 years, Alfred Crosby, who writes about the WWI era disease and its impact on the US (PBS did a show on it recently, I think), but the onoy notable Al Gross was the inventor of the walkie talkie, and Al wasn't his given name... Do you find this valuable? |
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sefreimont |
33. RE: Walter Bishop/ William Bell?
Dec 11 2008, 2:05 PM EST
"Okay think about it, Walter said to Peter "Maybe you have found your true calling at last...working with me" (may i add with a beaming smile on his face).We might just as easily conclude from the archival footage that William Bell WAS in the lab - as the person holding the camera. Or we might conclude from the low camera angle on the super-8 footage, that a child (Peter?) was holding the camera... It is unclear what you are driving at... Are you saying that Peter and Bell are the same? Or that Walter is Bell? Or that Peter is a clone of Bell? And as for harming Peter, what harm? Other than an utter disregard for anything other than the unfettered advancement of science short of killing someone, it is unclear what Walter might have done wrong... Almost everything we have seen in regards to Walter's experimentation suggests that he came up with ideas, laid the theoretical foundations for this and that, published something, then lost interest and moved on to some new, more interesting challenge... Little wonder, then, that Bell (if he exists) might have decided to act on the opportunity to profit from all the work Walter (and Bell?) performed, no? Do you find this valuable? |
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woodboxgang |
34. RE: Walter Bishop/ William Bell?
Dec 11 2008, 8:07 PM EST
It is easy to read more into every scene in this show because there is so much mystery. Surely some clues are meant to be misleading and prolong suspense.The season is almost over so I believe that means that we have met every important character by now. Apply Walter and William to mystery writing. Detective(Bishop) and culprit(Bell) are to be introduced early. The culprit has to be introduced early enough to be a viable suspect otherwise viewers will feel cheated. The culprit must also be capable of and motivated to committ the crimes both physically and mentally. Usually the culprit's unveiling is prolonged as long as possible to keep people viewing. Maybe Fringe is breaking from the norm on alot of these precepts that are common. Does anyone know just how long this season is going to be in episodes? 1 out of 2 found this valuable. Do you? |
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arjay999 |
35. RE: Walter Bishop/ William Bell?
Dec 11 2008, 10:57 PM EST
"Does anyone know just how long this season is going to be in episodes?They are committed to 13 initial episodes, last I officially saw reported. Then they took the break at eppy 10, "Safe". Tells me that they committed to at least another 10, so expect approximately 23 this year (expect the last 2 combined into a season finale in May). Also, TV Guide has reported that Joshua Jackson has made a six-year commitment to Fringe (whatever that means). So I presume this indicates that J.J. Abrams is planning to have the show finish after it's sixth season --just like he was planning with Lost. Do you find this valuable? |
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4thjet |
36. RE: Walter Bishop/ William Bell?
Dec 12 2008, 12:56 AM EST
"Another possibility: Walter/William is a loose metaphor for Bill Gates (Student/Protege)/Paul Allen (Professor/Mentor), co-founders of Microsoft, another "sinister" multinational corporation out to control the world, that found its origins at Harvard where Gates and Allen met as student/professor... In this interpretation of Fringe, Bishop (Allen) is the true genius, developing all of the amazing, "impossible" things that we witness each week from his basement lab at Harvard, aided by Bell (Gates). Then, about 17 1/2 years ago, Bishop suddenly learns that Bell isn't just interested in the science but seeks to profit/do terrible things. Bishop begins to squirrel away his research, his notes and inventions, in old cars/garages (recall reference to more than one car), safe deposit boxes, etc., across the Northeast. In an attempt to enjoy maximum benefit without sharing, while avoiding ethical or other public scrutiny, Bell engineers (no pun intended) an incident that sees Bishop locked away, thereby freeing Bell to develop Massive Dynamics without rival or partner... As for Bishop's wife/Peter's mother, we already know it is "a long story for another day" (Peter's words to Olivia)... Look for her to appear in the company of Bell, as in Bell takes ideas, inventions, patents, and Bishop's wife, completing the coup that drives Bishop over the edge, rendering him incapable of defending himself, and taking from him any immediate reason "to go on.""Yes I agree with you too. I was noticing the same similarities to Bill Gate/Microsoft etc. and got the hints from the prequel comics that the rift between William Bell and Walter is probably what you say. As well as Bell going on to form Massive Dynamics and putting Walter away but with someone keeping an eye on him. (that shrink that wanted him to stay in the instiution so bad). I expect at some point the shrink will take them to court to try and put Walter back under his watch, just as Walter is about to discover something major about the pattern. Do you find this valuable? |
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GreenGrammar |
37. RE: Walter Bishop/ William Bell
Dec 12 2008, 6:30 AM EST
Sorry if I'm repeating, but what if Nina is trying to figure out information about William Bell, and knows that Walter Bishop IS Bell? Also, something that just popped up in my mind, in Episode 8, I think it was, Walter sings "Jingle BELLs" to jog his memory about Dashel, which leads to St. Claires, where he once again sees that person, which could possibly be Bell. Do you find this valuable? |
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Etread |
38. RE: Walter Bishop/ William Bell
Dec 12 2008, 10:15 AM EST
We have seen William Bell :D In Walter's cell. I think there are some additional clues within Walter's weekly notes, but I will bet my left goanie that Walter is a clone of William or the other way around, but something has gone wrong, where one of them got one type of behavioral traits and the other got the opposite. Also, I believe we will find that Peter has died many times over and that he is also a clone. He may have died in the car wreck and almost assuredly died from the virus he had.
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sefreimont |
39. RE: Walter Bishop/ William Bell
Dec 12 2008, 11:01 AM EST
"We have seen William Bell :D In Walter's cell. I think there are some additional clues within Walter's weekly notes, but I will bet my left goanie that Walter is a clone of William or the other way around, but something has gone wrong, where one of them got one type of behavioral traits and the other got the opposite. Also, I believe we will find that Peter has died many times over and that he is also a clone. He may have died in the car wreck and almost assuredly died from the virus he had. "I never thought I would have much need for three, but if you are willing to give one of yours away so freely and easily, I would be happy to take it, perhaps to display on one of the bookshelves in my office... Killing Peter multiple times in his childhood would strain credulity - no need to jump the shark in Season 1, I think. He almost certainly died in the car/lake incident referred to above and was "rescued" - or at least his body was - by The Observer (Anyone also think it a shame that The Observer is not used in ALL episodes? Should have been there from the pilot, thinks me...) As for a Walter/William clone, I still fail to understand the obsession with this notion. What purpose could it possibly serve? As the detective/mystery reference above makes clear, there are specific formulae for telling stories - some dating back to Ancient Greece (man v man, man v nature, man v gods, man v himself) that have seen few significant additions in nearly three thousand years (man v machine [since Frankenstein] and man v corporation [since The Jungle, or if one prefers, post-Marx]) What purpose would a Walter/William clone serve, other than to save money on casting? Besides, Nina knows him - she said so, didn't she? - and Walter was friends with him BEFORE he became paranoid (leading to the obvious observation - Just because Walter was paranoid, does not mean that someone - a real, non-clone William Bell - was not out to get him...) Why would Walter clone himself? So he could have someone to play mad scientist with? Can anyone explain - with reference to what we have been given so far - why a William/Walter clone is necessary? 2 out of 2 found this valuable. Do you? |